Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Juan García's avatar

Very interesting data-driven post Mike. It reminded me of this good one: https://www.monbiot.com/2023/10/04/the-cruel-fantasies-of-well-fed-people/

**The below is no longer endorsed, these people apparently do exist in numbers**

However, one important weakness I saw is that it's very one sided and generally fighting a bit of a strawman. You look at what would happen if humanity was to return to medieval agricultural yield levels. I find that no group of people in the world is actually arguing for this. My impression is that there are two big camps on this end of things, arguing for very different things:

- Camp 1 is the groups of people (e.g. anarchoprimitivists) that propose that humans lived a more natural and happy life as hunter gatherers and therefore that is the state we should return to, by ending farming altogether and reducing the population of the planet by many orders of magnitude. The bases of this claim are hotly debated but in good part debunked, even by notorious proponents of related ideologies: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-truth-about-primitive-life-a-critique-of-anarchoprimitivism - Although some opponents do admit that the advent of agriculture may have made people's lives worse for a considerable period of time, compared to hunter-gatherer baseline - see https://www.cold-takes.com/has-life-gotten-better/

All in all, not really a serious alternative, but one that still capture some segments of popular imagination. But not at all arguing for returning to medieval agriculture.

- Camp 2 is more serious, we're talking about the people generally advocating moving to *regenerative agriculture* away from high-yield industrial agriculture. This is the group that the first article I linked to specifically critiques. This type of lower yield, higher sustainability agriculture is based on small farms and gardens is often based on philosophies like permaculture, agroecology, agroforestry, restoration ecology, keyline design, and holistic management. Some of them are not even against mechanization in agriculture as along as it is done sustainably and using techniques that are not fossil-fuel intensive, working at the interface between precision agriculture and regenerative agriculture. You can find plenty of examples from a quick google search but here's one as a sample: https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/opinion/comment-four-ways-technology-is-driving-regenerative-agriculture/

I argue that the post would be seriously improved using baseline yields of regenerative agriculture systems as the comparison, as opposed to preindustrial yields. I think the story would play out similarly, but it would be a more realistic, fair and useful comparison. I'd argue these are the real-world "opponents" of the ideas you defend in this post, and as such it would be more useful to write posts like these in conversation with their ideas, instead of with the idea of returning to medieval agriculture which as far as I can tell nobody is arguing for- a strawman makes for an easy fight.

Expand full comment
Florian U. Jehn's avatar

Nice summary Mike. However, it feels to me a bit like a strawman of degrowth. The argument you seem to make is: "Degrowth wants us to completely stop modern agriculture and this would be really bad."

The way I have understood degrowth so far is more in the way of doughnut economics. So, mainly making sure that we don't overstep planetary boundaries, while working on a more equal distribution of resources and not a complete abolition of agriculture.

Expand full comment
9 more comments...

No posts